DUST Search - Dust 128 VS 128..... Would it really be fun??

Marston VC wrote:

Ryan Mauler wrote:

Marston VC wrote:

My answer to you is RIGHT HERE Never gonna happen in MAG huh? Sureeeeee

Sorry, here's a clarification. Swarming like a bunch of Zerglings is never gonna happen. Never. Swarm tactics are obviously ver viable, but you of all people (being a SVER True Blood) should know that swarm tactics can be countered with Heavy Armor, and crowd control tactics

(shhhhhhh my past is what drives me to keep this from happening again!) No.... what you said was thoughtful and very relevant. Your right, its just another tactic, and CAN be countered. But just because i CAN kill a logistics LAV doesn't mean its very do-able. Heavy armor and area denial weapons are good to counter this tactic, however its tough to say "everyone do this" when you have no guarantee the other side is going to swarm at all. I only posted this thread with the hopes of seeing everyones opinion on it. My opinion is that, "yes, swarming is a good and viable tactic, HOWEVER i don't want it to be the ONLY tactic...... Nor do i want it to be "all that" convenient to use" Because if you want to think of it on a tactical level...... swarming is pretty simple compared to other things you could be doing.


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Ryan Mauler WarRavens League of Infamy 12	Posted - 2013.07.16 07:48:00 - [1] - Quote I whole heartedly think DUST deserves larger battles. You look at their epic game trailers and hear the words "one battle could cause the fall of an empire" and you think "frick yeah! Epiiiiic!" And then you realize that empires are being fought over by about 16 dudes on each side.... Wat... No no no. I think 64 vs 64 would make things MUCH more enjoyable. We're talking about armies coming against armies to fight for control in New Eden, not squads against squads. There are a few problems that CCP would run into if they wanted to appease our desire for more war like encounters. Before I get into that, here are a few things I wanna go over real fast. You can skip if you want. 1) The definition of swarming: Swarming is having such a massive amount of combatants running hap-hazardly at a position, that the defenders simply cannot fill them with enough bullets. Not gonna happen in MAG or DUST... ever. Obviously a swarm like tactic is used, but it is not nearly as "zombie" like as Zerg. It is running between covers and overwhelming a defensive position with cover fire in order to move more combatants into the objective area. 2) Difference between Strategy and Tactic. Strategy is the answer to the question "What are we trying to accomplish". It is a very broad term that encompasses long term or over all goals and how to achieve them. Tactic is the answer to the question "How and who?" This is much more specific. In order to distinguish the two terms, take a general and a squad leader. The general uses Strategy when thinking of his campaign fronts, resource gathering, transportation, etc. a squad leader uses Tactic when thinking of the specialties of the individuals of his squad and the unique scenarios in which they find themselves. Alright, so here is what CCP will have to overcome in order to create a more war like experience. 1) Higher Leadership. Right now, DUST is based on tactics more than Strategy. In order to facilitate the growth in game size, players will need someone leading the campaign. They will need someone with an overall Strategic plan that will command squad leaders to fulfill objectives. Right now, the squad leaders have strategy based commands and not tactic based commands. This is all well and good for small time battles, but for larger/more intense battles, you can't have a ton of groups running around without having a good idea of what every other group is doing. Having a higher leadership role will solve this problem. Strategic commands are: Capture Obj A, Defend Obj C, Aide Squad 3 etc. These commands would belong to the Commander. Tactic based commands would belong to the Squad leader, and they would be used to facilitate the completion of the Commander's objectives. They would be: Provide cover fire along this wall, Escourt/repair this vehicle, Set up defensive positions behind this rubble, etc. Application for this kind of battle would be based on a WP min and then selection would be random or selecting the individual who has played the most games without being selected. Also, battles this big would require everyone to be in a squad. 2) The current map layouts are not condusive to the war-like encounter that you'd expect from a 64 vs 64 game. I'm not talking about size, I'm talking about front lines. MAG defined the fronts with Bunkers where each squad had dominion over a single bunker. This spread the battle over a long space and made objectives pretty obvious. DUST, however, is much larger than MAG. Obviously the objectives are not quite so obvious (because each squad in DUST is not given a specific bunker) but they are pretty straight forward. The adaptability in DUST strategy is much greater than MAG, because the frontlies are always changing dramatically. We just need to be able to spread the battle out more. One of the biggest parts of the current maps that would inhibit this spreading out is the bottle neck spawning, but since the beta, CCP seems to have done better with that. Edit: I am not saying we should replace Ambush and Skirmish with this Massive Encounter gameplay, but I do think they should add a larger one to the mix. Especially when dealing with corp battles. It makes no sense that a corporation with 1000+ players should have to defend their Districts with only 16. And as far as lag is concerned, CCP can definitely over come that. Zipper made MAG possible with minimal lag. Obviously MAG and DUST are not even in the same ball park (at least not any more) but I think CCP can handle it
Ryan Mauler WarRavens League of Infamy 12	Posted - 2013.07.16 08:01:00 - [2] - Quote Marston VC wrote: My answer to you is RIGHT HERE Never gonna happen in MAG huh? Sureeeeee Sorry, here's a clarification. Swarming like a bunch of Zerglings is never gonna happen. Never. Swarm tactics are obviously ver viable, but you of all people (being a SVER True Blood) should know that swarm tactics can be countered with Heavy Armor, and crowd control tactics
Ryan Mauler WarRavens League of Infamy 12	Posted - 2013.07.16 08:13:00 - [3] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Ryan Mauler wrote: Marston VC wrote: My answer to you is RIGHT HERE Never gonna happen in MAG huh? Sureeeeee Sorry, here's a clarification. Swarming like a bunch of Zerglings is never gonna happen. Never. Swarm tactics are obviously ver viable, but you of all people (being a SVER True Blood) should know that swarm tactics can be countered with Heavy Armor, and crowd control tactics (shhhhhhh my past is what drives me to keep this from happening again!) No.... what you said was thoughtful and very relevant. Your right, its just another tactic, and CAN be countered. But just because i CAN kill a logistics LAV doesn't mean its very do-able. Heavy armor and area denial weapons are good to counter this tactic, however its tough to say "everyone do this" when you have no guarantee the other side is going to swarm at all. I only posted this thread with the hopes of seeing everyones opinion on it. My opinion is that, "yes, swarming is a good and viable tactic, HOWEVER i don't want it to be the ONLY tactic...... Nor do i want it to be "all that" convenient to use" Because if you want to think of it on a tactical level...... swarming is pretty simple compared to other things you could be doing. Haha, gotcha. Agreed, swarm tactics will get very boring after a while. I'm sure CCP will find a way to encourage strategic creativity, but I guess that's kind of what this discussion is about now. I just don't like the idea of fighting over Districts between Mega Corps, and only having 16 of your own guys doing the fighting. I'd like to see actual wars being fought between corps with battles that would reflect the depth and intensity that New Eden has to offer.
Ryan Mauler WarRavens League of Infamy 12	Posted - 2013.07.16 08:25:00 - [4] - Quote One thing that comes to mind to help prevent people from always selecting the swarm tactic, would be purchasable deployable short-mid range turrets to try and bottleneck swarms at hot points. Squads will have to get tactically tricky to counter bottlenecks, but I could also see the turrets getting a little op, and if squad leaders aren't proficient enough, they may think swarming is the only way around the turrets. I dunno, it's a tough one.
Ryan Mauler WarRavens League of Infamy 12	Posted - 2013.07.17 05:18:00 - [5] - Quote Syther Shadows wrote: wasn't there a corp in eve that focus on mass recruitment and swarming people ? Swarming in Eve is an entirely different concept from the swarming in DUST (being an fps)